Curse

Saraphim · Nov 14, 2007, 07:08 PM // 19:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nuclfus

As far as a rationale for game mechanics (disclaimer: this is just my theory, not Anet's official word): keep in mind having to res your pet is a joke compared to party members or enemy mobs (both of which still leave corpses). Skill names like Comfort Animal and Heal as One almost imply the pet isn't really dead as opposed to unconscious (i.e. not a corpse), and their cast times reflect that situation being easier to fix. On the other hand, skills like Resurrect and Restore Life definitely make it clear that your target is dead, and take longer to cast as if you're really in the process of bringing someone back to life. This also makes sense when considering that dead untamed animals never get up and walk around some more, so we can assume they're not just "unconscious" and their body is fair game for corpse exploit.

Erm... as far as I know, health dropping to zero does not equal unconsious, unless you're counting the KD in Kilroy's punchout. The pet is most definitely dead... He has ceased to be! He's expired and gone to meet his maker! 'He's a stiff! Bereft of life, he rests in peace! His metabolic processes are now history! He's off the twig! 'He's kicked the bucket, he's shuffled off his mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisibile!! He is an EX PET !!!!

Sorry, couldn't resist it.

October Jade · Nov 14, 2007, 07:11 PM // 19:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elrien Silentfoot

Well, nothing personal towards Chthon, but if this thread is going to be relegated to obscurity, I vote we return to hijacking the SR thread.

I actually prefer that it remain here. Threads in Riverside are worthless past the first two pages or so, because people quit reading before contributing their own (often also worthless) opinions.

DDL · Nov 14, 2007, 07:13 PM // 19:13

Plus both [skill]Comfort Animal[/skill] and and [skill]Heal as One[/skill] specifically use the words 'dead' and 'resurrected'.

Elrien Silentfoot · Nov 14, 2007, 07:34 PM // 19:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nuclfus

I can't say much for PvP given I only AB on occasion. But as for PvE farming, I think all this does is force more open-mindedness on the part of players. Love B/P? Fine, it'll still work but you'll just have to use the corpses you get wisely. If that doesn't work, try a different tactic. I've done ToPK with a balanced hero party (2 mes, 2 monk, 3 ele and 1 MM) and it's tons faster and more fun than your average B/P PUG.

It's not B/P anymore if you can't use your pets. You might as well go with barrage only and free up 2 skill slots and save yourself the blackout.

It's good to know that there are other builds out there for tomb runs, but at the same time that's no justification to reduce the diversity.

Quote:

As far as a rationale for game mechanics (disclaimer: this is just my theory, not Anet's official word): keep in mind having to res your pet is a joke compared to party members or enemy mobs (both of which still leave corpses). Skill names like Comfort Animal and Heal as One almost imply the pet isn't really dead as opposed to unconscious (i.e. not a corpse), and their cast times reflect that situation being easier to fix. On the other hand, skills like Resurrect and Restore Life definitely make it clear that your target is dead, and take longer to cast as if you're really in the process of bringing someone back to life. This also makes sense when considering that dead untamed animals never get up and walk around some more, so we can assume they're not just "unconscious" and their body is fair game for corpse exploit.

Having to res a pet being a joke is there for a very good reason : The pet owner suffers a skills blackout for 3-15 seconds on the death of the pet in most cases. Any res, by that logic, costs you at least 4 seconds. In addition, the one true pet res (which applies to pets other than your own) has a 5 second cast time.

Vinraith · Nov 14, 2007, 07:42 PM // 19:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elrien Silentfoot

Ever done a B/P run as MM?

The point is that minions die *really* fast there. Using pets as fuel was the way to keep enough minions up to protect the other players. I fully expect that until this change is reversed, the MM in the team just got bumped out of the roster.

We're talking about a change that, in PvE, affects one (already questionable, IMO) member of one team build in one area. Again, if the corpse supply is so low (or the minion attrition rate so high) that a pet corpse is necessary, something other than an MM would be a better choice.

Dark Paladin X · Nov 14, 2007, 07:54 PM // 19:54

Chthon, I do agree that it makes no sense for having pet corpses not exploitable since they are fleshy creatures. And the rule of thumb is all fleshy creates leave exploitable corpses. But you might need to consider how rangers would use pets go suicide and use exploit skills like [skill]Consume Corpse[/skill] or [skill]Well of Profane[/skill].

Snow Bunny · Nov 14, 2007, 08:02 PM // 20:02

/notsigned.

I played a B/P team today. They buffed barrage. o noes, no minion armies in 20 seconds, whatever will we do?

Elrien Silentfoot · Nov 14, 2007, 08:04 PM // 20:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vinraith

We're talking about a change that, in PvE, affects one (already questionable, IMO) member of one team build in one area. Again, if the corpse supply is so low (or the minion attrition rate so high) that a pet corpse is necessary, something other than an MM would be a better choice.

Not with the B/P build. The MMs are simply the meatshields because there *are* no other tanks, and there's just 1 monk.

Leave out the MM and the barragers have to soak the damage, which doesn't really work well, which causes you to need a warr to tank, which means now you need a second monk. Don't forget that there's also enchant shatters around so bonding isn't going to work well either.

B/P is (was?) a reliable build for a good reason.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Paladin X

Chthon, I do agree that it makes no sense for having pet corpses not exploitable since they are fleshy creatures. And the rule of thumb is all fleshy creates leave exploitable corpses. But you might need to consider how rangers would use pets go suicide and use exploit skills like [skill]Consume Corpse[/skill] or [skill]Well of Profane[/skill].

You're forgetting about the skills blackout.

A ranger cannot conveniently exploit the death of its own pet. At best, with BM 16 it has to wait 3 seconds before it could do that. No sane person would waste all those points simply to be able to gain a teleport and a heal/mana boost on the OFF CHANCE their pet dies. A ranger who does not put points into BM faces a 15 second blackout.

Again, who's going to live with a 15 second shut-down just to be able to use a corpse exploiting skill?

Other things to consider : You need to take 2 skills at least to have a pet and res it, which means any build trying to use this technique is already down to 6 skills. Expertise is WAY more effective. People tend to ignore pets in PvP (in my experience anyway) - usually its easier to kill the ranger instead of the pet, as the ranger will have 70 armour and the pet has 80.

The only thing this addresses is a necro using the pets of other rangers in the area, and if you really want to fix that (although imo it's not neccessary), then prevent SR from triggering on pet deaths.

Div · Nov 14, 2007, 08:08 PM // 20:08

So basically what you're saying is that you're bad at the game and since you can't kill enemies fast enough, you need to exploit your own pets' corpses. O ok.

Elrien Silentfoot · Nov 14, 2007, 08:12 PM // 20:12

Whatever delusions float your boat, mate.

lakatz · Nov 14, 2007, 08:20 PM // 20:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elrien Silentfoot

Not with the B/P build. The MMs are simply the meatshields because there *are* no other tanks, and there's just 1 monk.

Leave out the MM and the barragers have to soak the damage, which doesn't really work well, which causes you to need a warr to tank, which means now you need a second monk.

You don't use your pets as tanks?

Div · Nov 14, 2007, 08:24 PM // 20:24

Funny how hypocrites go into PvP threads saying PvPers should learn to adapt and bring "counters" or whatnot. And we get this. Maybe learn to adapt to the change and modify a 2 year old build that should've been modified anyways?

lyra_song · Nov 14, 2007, 08:27 PM // 20:27

Just FYI, some of us who want it reverted back dont give a damn about B/P.

Elrien Silentfoot · Nov 14, 2007, 08:28 PM // 20:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by lakatz

You don't use your pets as tanks?

Of course. But the point is that having pets as tanks which die reasonably quickly puts a serious damper on your ability to barrage. Without the added MM shield, it's probably more viable to get a dedicated tank instead and leave the pet at home.

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

Funny how hypocrites go into PvP threads saying PvPers should learn to adapt and bring "counters" or whatnot. And we get this. Maybe learn to adapt to the change and modify a 2 year old build that should've been modified anyways?

So you admit that your post was nothing more than an attempt to piss off some other players? Nice going.

And it would be nice for PvPers to realise that PvE characters can change their skills, but not their equipment on the fly. Sure, your hardcore players can probably get a new set of 15k armour inside a week or whatever, but a casual player isn't going to be very happy to discover that he has to go looking for new gear because his old playstyle just got canned.

Now personally, I do both, so as far as I'm concerned you can take your PvP vs. PvE mentality and shove it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Just FYI, some of us who want it reverted back dont give a damn about B/P.

It's just one vivid example of where the change actually makes a difference. I care about the change beyond B/P as well. Like I said, internal consistency is important.

HawkofStorms · Nov 14, 2007, 08:28 PM // 20:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

/notsigned.

I played a B/P team today. They buffed barrage. o noes, no minion armies in 20 seconds, whatever will we do?

Agreed. People should actually try things out before they moan. B/P groups still work. Pets are useful more as additional meat sheilds then as fuel for the MM.

lakatz · Nov 14, 2007, 08:30 PM // 20:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elrien Silentfoot

Of course. But the point is that having pets as tanks which die reasonably quickly puts a serious damper on your ability to barrage. Without the added MM shield, it's probably more viable to get a dedicated tank instead and leave the pet at home.

Which die quicker? Pets or minions? Which deal the most damage? Pets w/ pet skills or minions?

To the point, I understand the PvPers' PoV. I understand Lyra's PoV. I don't understand your position that B/P buiilds need pet corpse exploitation. I don't believe it's vital to a B/P or B/P team build. And my ranger goes out B/P [edit] whenever possible.

Saraphim · Nov 14, 2007, 09:02 PM // 21:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by lakatz

And my ranger goes out B/P (or Splinter B/P) whenever possible.

Is Splinter B/P that viable? I found that using SW meant I had to take points out of Beastmastery and left me unable to heal my tiger properly..

Yes I heal my tiger, I'm weird like that.

Grammar · Nov 14, 2007, 09:34 PM // 21:34

IMO, the fact that people are so upset over this chance proves that the change was needed.

People are talking about dropping pets all together in certain areas, just because they no longer leave corpses.
I mean, hold on a second here.....What's more important? The pets themselves or the corpses they leave behind when they die?
If the answer is the latter, then theres a problem here. That just smacks of exploit right there.

If people drop pets in certain areas because of this, then the change was justified, because that would prove that pets were being exploited for their corpses.

not signed.

EDIT: On a side note, I would definitely be in favor of eliminating or severely reducing the blackout period after your pet dies though.

lakatz · Nov 14, 2007, 09:36 PM // 21:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saraphim

Is Splinter B/P that viable? I found that using SW meant I had to take points out of Beastmastery and left me unable to heal my tiger properly..

Yes I heal my tiger, I'm weird like that.

I placed it second and in parentheses for that reason. Usually if I'm going to take SW, I don't take a pet. And vice versa. But I have on occasion used them together. I think I've only used them together once or twice since playing in EoTN though. And now that you mention it... and I think about it... I'm going to go back and edit it out of that post because that's why I'm not so keen on using them together... everything is 'watered down.' I only mentioned it because I was doing my usual 'covering all the bases,' but some times it's not so wise to cover all the bases.

Alka · Nov 14, 2007, 09:46 PM // 21:46

It's still nice to play a game that's internally consistent. I've stopped playing other games when rules were added arbitrarily that broke the concept of cause and effect.

/signed
pet dont have usable corpse is so just idiotic to game idea /rules
that that anet skill ballancer make me sick, he just dont know to do his job which he is payed for
for 2 years of play its just most idiotic nerf i ever saw,
i dont do mm bp team more than 1x in 3 monts so it dont affect me but,some basic game rules are broken by this